July 31, 2021

Justin Litvack - Boxer+Gerson

New website at unionistpodcast.com so stop by and learn all about the podcast!

Justin Litvack was named Boxer+Gerson’s (boxerlaw.com) newest partner at the beginning of 2018. Exactly one year later, he assumed duties as managing partner,...

New website at unionistpodcast.com so stop by and learn all about the podcast!

Justin Litvack was named Boxer+Gerson’s (boxerlaw.com) newest partner at the beginning of 2018. Exactly one year later, he assumed duties as managing partner, responsible for day-to-day management of the firm’s attorneys and staff members. Born and raised in the Bay Area, he hails from a family of legal professionals, the majority of whom specialized in employment-related fields.

Justin spent the first seven years of his career on the defense side of the table as a partner at a prominent workers’ compensation firm, where he represented both large self-insured employers and many different insurance carriers. Seeing how difficult it was for injured workers to collect the benefits they were entitled to, he decided to switch his focus to injured workers to help them navigate the state’s complex workers’ compensation system. His experience in the insurance world has given him unique insights into defense tactics often aimed at delaying the delivery of benefits to deserving injured workers.

When he is not advocating on behalf of clients, Justin can usually be found watching a ball game and spending time with his family.

Unionist is hosted by Phil Ybarrolaza in Oakland, CA.
This episode was recorded at the NorCalPods Studio inside of Keller Street Co-Work in Petaluma California. Unionist (unionistpodcast.com) is a proud member of the NorCal Pods (norcalpods.com) podcast network.


Justin Litvack

Justin: It's like dad want to play video games and he's way better than I was at his age.

And it bothers me really well. How 

Phil: old, how old are you? 40. 40. Yeah. I was gonna say you look so young. God, 

Justin: I'm going to age real 

quick. No, it takes, it takes years off your life. 40 and your ma so anyway, this is the unionist podcast. I'm Justin Litvack from boxer Gerson, 

Phil: thank you for sitting down and. You know, basically your firm's a work workman's comp firm, 

Justin: right? We, we are we, the vast majority of our practice are representing injured workers. We're a union shop, our staff, or our Teamsters 8 56. Oh God. So we make it a practice to try to represent union members.


Phil: And yeah, I, going back for years, just my, you know, in my experience, we've always referred people there. And I know, I don't know that you're union exclusive, but you definitely what's unique about your firm is you always kind of understood that the union has a role in what it does in addition to what you guys do.

Justin: Yeah. And that's, that is so important that I, I. We see, we see a lot of different attorneys in our industry. 

Phil: Right? Cause as a union official, I can tell you, sometimes people have their own attorneys and we end up stepping all over each other or, or worse. And it, and it gets in the way of, of a person may be getting what they need, you know?

Justin: Yeah. Oftentimes what, what separates union workers from not every injured worker we represent, but a lot is they get paid well, great benefits. They want to go back to work. They don't like the fact that they got injured. Even if they're off work for six months, the goal is to get back to work. You know, I never even thought of that.

Whereas a lot of, a lot of our, a lot of our clients sometimes, yeah, they like the job, but they don't care. The job is not as much a 

Phil: priority. It's not a priority either. It's not for those 

Justin: people. Yeah. But for a union employee, their goal is to get back to work. So oftentimes the goal is not the value of the case.

The goal and that's what makes what we do, frankly. More, that's a huge difference. It's exciting to me. Like we have a personal injury department. The goal of the personal injury department is obviously to serve your client, but it's always money, right? At the end of the day, it's a lawsuit and it's money in workers' comp.

And this is, this is what makes this so exciting for me. The goal can be any number of things. It's often medical treatment. Sometimes it's getting back to work sometimes it's money who knows what it is. But for the most part with union members, sometimes we will gladly take a discount on the case, or maybe your preference isn't to push what we call the value of the permanent disability.

The goal is simply to get them back to work, 

Phil: right? Cause permanent disability, you know, if it's not handled correctly, could you know, basically yeah. They could lose their, they could, they could, they could injure themselves or permanently disabled themselves right 

Justin: out of a job. And I'll never forget a phone call.

I received from a business agent who said to me, Hey, I need your help on this case. It's another attorney. I don't know this attorney what's happening. So he sent me the information and he said that the member's calling me freaking out. The employer is telling them they literally walked him off the job.

And he, he said why? And I said, oh, well, there's a work restriction. Well, what's that? And I said, well, the doctor is concluding that your member can't do his job and, you know, driver job 

Phil: permanent work restriction, or, yeah. So 

Justin: can I say that that's a permanent work 

Phil: restrictions, patios, pension, or anything else there?

Justin: And, and the attorney and it actually, it got a little ugly because he said to me, Hey, can you talk to his attorney? I said, well, that's kind of weird for me to call another. Attorney and say, you're not doing a good job, like talk to your client. Right. But, you know, I, I did. Why not? So I stopped him in the hallway of court and I said, Hey, you don't know me, you have this case, the union's calling me just as a colleague.

And he got upset with me. He said, don't tell me how to do my job. I said, oh, okay, fine. Yeah. Yeah. You, you have every right to say that. But the reality was that attorney didn't know, understand how to represent a union member and that union member had questions for the business agent and that business.

Didn't have answers because they had no relationship with the attorney. Right. So we play a really important role in that process, in the, in our, just our understanding of how these issues interrelate. 

Phil: Yeah. And the difference for me, because I've butted heads with the attorneys in that situation, because they're trying to wholly kind of sequester their, their clients so that they're not getting any other information from, but from them, they're 

Justin: just, it's like I got to get my client the most money because what's weird.

What's what's totally, I don't, I don't know if I can sweater, but what's totally totally ass backwards about worker's comp and I is that swearing 

Phil: ass backwards. I 

Justin: think it's sort of sworn of it. 

So what's totally ass backwards about worker's comp. And I tell every one of my clients this, I don't, I don't even hide it. I make more money. The more injured you are. How weird is that? Yeah, that is weird.

Like, I don't want to root against my clients, but the reality is that the state set up a system. We're we're, we're paid a contingency fee based on the value of the case. More disability equals more money. So the more injured my client, the more money I make, how dumb is that I could do a ton of work, getting my client all the right medical care, getting them back to work.

And I am hurting my myself. What, what I tell my clients is that's how you know that I'm a fiduciary to you because I, it's not about me. It's not about my mind. 

Phil: Well, that's, that's always been my experience with, with the firm because I've been recommending people there for 20 years. And that is that.

You know, John used to tell me that we're big enough. We're not going to, you know, one case isn't going to change the, the fortunes of the firm. You know? So, 

Justin: In fact, when I was a defense attorney, 

Phil: I mean, how big, how big are you? 

Justin: Boxer Gerson? 15 attorneys, 15 attorneys. 

Phil: I mean, relative to like 

Justin: state, there are three or four worker's comp firms in the state that compare to us.

Size-wise gotcha. In the state. So I generally tell people we're the largest applicant law firm in the state, and here's what, here's where that plays a role. I was on the other side, I was a partner at a defense firm meaning I tried to screw over injured workers. That was my. That's why I don't do it because it's an awful way to live.

Like you ever want to feel awful about yourself, go to like a cocktail party and you're thinking every one of you assholes is lying to me because you're just trained to just assume people are lying just an awful way to live. So my w there was an attorney at boxer and Gerson who was notorious for. Just pushing cases until the very end.

And what we always said on the defense side was only a boxer and Gerson, can they do that? Because they don't feel the need to turn cases and make money. Right. They're fine with letting a case play out, pursuing every last angle. And you, you can't have that mindset when you're trying as a defense lawyer to settle a case with boxer integration, because they just don't, that's not how we operate.

We have enough volume at enough, fi enough clients, enough attorneys where enough's going to roll over every year we're going to do. Okay. We never push anything. Yeah. That's amazing. And it's, it's, it's, it's done really well for, you know, I was talking to a client on the way here. Her case is 10 years old and she's like, well, what's next?

And I said, well, there's this, there's this there's this. And she's like, can we be done? I said, yeah, we can be done. Here's the value if you want to be done. Right. Here's where I'm headed. And she's like, well, I liked that. Then I said, yeah. So let's go for it. So it's 

Phil: you and a buddy. I mean, you can't, you can't live like that.

Right? I mean, so in other words, a small, a small firms gotta, 

Justin: well, they have to, they've got to pay people, right? So they're going to move cases and it's, it's a really weird ethical dilemma, right? Because as an applicant, lawyer, again, as a lawyer, you're a fiduciary to your client. You can't be interested in your own finances.

That's not your job well, but you better believe it happens. 

Phil: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the real world though. Right? 

Justin: You better believe that you have attorneys out there who are thinking I could re they're offering me, you know, $500,000. The case is worth a million. Right. That's a nice fee on the 500. I can talk my client into it.

That's an awful way to practice law, but unless you're at a firm that can handle that. There's, there's, I'm not saying everyone is isn't happily doing that, of course. But the pressure is going to be greater when you're, when you're your own person. So yeah, one and two man shops. I'm always impressed by them. We do do personal injury in addition to workers' comp, because sometimes the workers' comp claim includes a personal injury case.

A classic example, just to, just to give you an easy example, like your ups driver, your teamster, your ups driver, and you get hit by a FedEx truck, right? Yeah. Well, you've got a worker's comp claim with ups, but you better believe you're going to Sue FedEx. Right? Take 

Phil: them for all of them worth because 

Justin: ups isn't well, ups can't so, oh, okay.

You have the right to bring a workers' comp claim. So 

Phil: explain that. So I'm a ups driver. Yep. I get hit by a FedEx truck. Ups, can't try to recover the costs. 

Justin: So ups has to pay you benefits, right? Right. Because the what makes 

whatever contractual obligations on top of everything else,

Phil:  what makes workers' comp unique is you don't have to prove fault.

So ups didn't do anything wrong. You were just driving your route, right? FedEx guy fell asleep and hit you. So you ups says, okay, our insurance company will take care of you. You're off work. They give you medical treatment. They give you, hopefully give you wages. You call you call a workers' comp lawyer like me.

We help guide you to the right doctors. Make sure you get the right benefits. And then you have the right to Sue FedEx separately because they caused the injury. Now you have to pay back ups. So ups has an ironically in that, in what we call that third-party case, right? You and ups are on the same team.

Right? And now you're going after FedEx to get them to pay. And the money in a personal injury case is greater because you have to prove fault. 

Oh, okay. So in, in workman's comp 

Justin: there's no, no fault. Right? I always, I always tell this example, my, if my assistant heard it, she'd probably yell at me. Like if my assistant who is, is just super klutzy and trips and falls walking out of my office and hits her head, I'm responsible, even though I'm doing anything wrong, she's the klutz.

She's not a clutter, but like she laughed and she heard this. So I'm responsible. Even though I didn't do anything wrong. She just tripped over her own feet. Right. But she's at work and she's on the clock. She's on the clock, right? It's like the Aflac duck. Yeah, yeah. Right at work. But yet she can't Sue me.

Right. She can't, she 

Phil: can't that's the off, 

Justin: that's the trade off. She can't Sue me even when I am at fault, unless it's an extreme negligence. Right. Then she can come after me. Right. In certain circumstances. So when there's a third party case, you, you can Sue for fault. So you can have your cake and eat it too.

You got your benefits. You get your. And then you can get greedy by going after the third party 

Phil: defense. Well, it was a greedy or is it what you deserve, right? That's what you deserve. Well, not only that, but FedEx, isn't going to lose FedEx. The, yeah. 

Justin: Yeah. They're not going to non-union FedEx. 

Phil: Yes. They're not going to, they're not going to stop the operation to see if you're okay.

Justin: We would love to go after FedEx 

Phil:  I've been around ups, drivers and delivery guys and truck drivers long enough to know that.

There is a, sometimes a peer pressure, right. To not file, to not file claims. And I, and I think for every fake claim, there is my experience. There's probably 10 people that didn't file a claim. 

Justin: Did you ever work in a warehouse? Oh yeah. So did you, did they have the sign like 42 days without an accident?

Fuck that that's just, they're just deterring people cause they want their t-shirt or their barbecue 

Phil: ones, right? No, you get the points for the drawing of the prize, right? Yeah. Well, and the thing is, is now I'm 50 and I've, I've had a spinal fusion, which is yeah. Which was a non workman's comp thing. But I guarantee you that I figured out a way I can tell you after 25 years of various jobs in warehouse and in truck and everything else that, you know, I used up definitely part of my body.

Of course. And nobody's going to look out for 

Justin: you, you know, this is a, this is a perfect setup. 

Phil: Cause, and I'm reminded of Joe Montana, but go ahead. 

Justin: So football players. Okay, perfect. So going into football, I fight this back daily. I get calls from athletes, 

Phil: athletes. 

Justin: What kind of athletes? Football players, hockey players, any professional athlete.

I get calls from these guys. I have yet to represent a female professional athlete, but hopefully I will, but okay. They, 

Phil: Simone Biles is out there. 

Justin: That's true. If I could find a way to get in a good way for her, by the way, but go ahead. So, so these guys, times I run into these guys who are like, I can't, I can't file a workers' comp claim.

One guy has it, has it. I represent as a serious brain injury. He told me when we first met, I don't know about the CTE about this. Right. And I said, well, you have to protect yourself. Right. And sure enough, we're getting to the end of the case now. He, he confides in me privately how much he's struggling, but he will not pursue his claim because it's like a sign of weakness 

Phil: and it's not money at this 

Justin: point.

It's crazy now for those, for some of those guys, some of those guys, well, the money, 

Phil: if you look at football, I mean, how big is the NFL roster? 70, 70 

Justin: players, 45 guys on 

Phil: the active roster or 45 guys on an active roster. So I mean, that's a lot of, you know, if you're the 40th guy, 

Justin: well, those are the guys that don't want to file.

You're not going to just cause they're like, this is going to be held against me, but, but here's the irony. And 

Phil: then you get a check mark from one team and then he's always got an attitude or 

Justin: this is the irony of this. So the way the way they divide up the revenue in the NFL, seeing how the NFL and the players association negotiate a contract.

Like the typical ups don't get me 

Phil: started. 

Justin: I, the NFL different. Right? So there, she had a percentage of the pie, right? So all football related income, they get a percentage of, and it gets divided by number of teams and that's how they come up with a salary cap. Right. So these guys don't understand that, that I need to do a little more explaining.

If, if name, your name was your favorite NFL team. Well, I'm gonna read it. You're a Raider fan. So Derek Carr. Yeah, but not anymore. But Derek Carr gets hurt, gets 

Phil: fired, goes and says something stupid. Like all lives matter again or something. But 

Justin: simply remember the guy to remember, suppose he gets helmet in the back.

Right. The 

Phil: offensive line, the offensive line is in 

Justin: block form and he goes and gets an MRI. Who's paying for that MRI. Who do you think pays for the team? No, no. The insurance company, they filed a claim. They, the team files a workers' comp claim and that image, that treatment is paid for not by the Raiders, but by an insurance company of the Raiders.

Right? So, so the Raiders or the MetLife or whoever, the Raiders orthopedic surgeon, right. Is not a Raider employee. Wait a minute. He's not, he's not an employee. Dr. Rader is not doctor. Raider is not a Raider employee. He's a, he's a private, he's still got 

Phil: a commitment to 

Justin: excellence. He still does. Yeah. 49.

Phil: He's completely unrelated to the team 

Justin: other than other than they probably say, come travel with the team. Right. And yeah, we want to, we want you to be our surgeon, but you're not an employee. We're going to give you a lot of business because a lot of our guys are going to get hurt this year, but, but you're not an employee.

So that insurance policy costs a lot. All right. So let's say that premium is, is a million dollars. Well guess who guess who's paying for their own insurance premium the players. 

Phil: So that's, that's a bargain into their 

Justin: CBA. Do the, do the, so, so you have players basically paying for their own. 

Phil: That's some real skin in the game, bullshit there.

Justin: And then this is what's crazy. And then players not wanting to file claims. It's crazy. And it's it's whenever I get the chance I harp on this fact, the players, the team is taking advantage of the insurance policy because they don't want to pay for the treatment. Right. You're entitled to benefits. One of which is future medical for life by not filing, you're only screwing yourself, right?

It's crazy that guys don't do it, but they feel some, some guys feel some weird sense of weakness in filing and to the, to the union's credit. They've really, really. Fought that battle. I mean, they want guys filing because it's there. Right? 

Phil: Well, what surprised me is way back in the day when the 49ers were making all their championship runs and Montana got hurt, somebody was telling me Montana filed a workman's comp.

Justin: I think it has a 99% award against the 49ers. And here's the, here's why that matters. This is Joe Montana. Not 

Phil: about the money. Brady was the greatest of all time for sure. And is getting workman's comp like he's a warehouse guy, 

Justin: what he's getting his future medical for life. Right. And I tell every player I talked to your superhuman.

Now you're just gonna be, 

Phil: he's getting, he's getting legal protection too for, you know what I mean? Cause obviously it's not about just paying for the money in the moment. 

Justin: It's funny when you actually explained to guys that you're protecting them down the road, they're a lot more understanding. 

Phil: Cause the team, the team like, like any, especially the team is going to cover their ass for sure. Verse first fucking 

Justin: thing. The, what the teams do a lot of is they'll hand a player, a notice, they'll leave it in their locker and they'll say, oh, just sign there.

It's to protect you. Well, no, it's not it's to screw you so that when you're done with the team in five years, and you go back to file your worker's comp claims, it's in your body shot. Oh, you signed a waiver, you signed something saying you didn't have any injuries. Why would you sign that? Oh, they just told me to sign.


Phil: that's part of the physical, I would imagine 

Justin: exit seasoned, physical on the very bottom of your exit season. Physical says I've been advised of my workers' comp rights. I have no injuries, blah, blah, blah. And those guys, they want to go home. And the last thing we want to do is say, oh, every part of my body hurts because they want to play right.

Phil: Well, and especially if, if you're, if you're leading the wedge on kickoffs or something, you know, those are the guys that, you know, you could get 


Justin: or not. It is fundamentally changed the way I watch football. And I can't say I'm happy about that. 

Phil: I'm kind of been getting away from football man with the whole CDE thing.

And then they talk about player safety, and then they want to extend the season, which 

Justin: is so contradictory. How about this, this story? A player called me. Three weeks ago. And we're talking about NFL player, NFL players, a player called me three weeks ago and told me that the team gave him an option where if he accepted the option about, about geez.

And you gotta deal with agents is tied. Oh yeah. It was tied to his contract that if he took that option, they would give him an MRI. Oh my God. They are as cutthroat as it gets. And what a classic employer, how do I feel? And I, and that's why it's changed it for me because like, by the way, not 

Phil: all our employers are bad, but they're like, like unions and cops and people they're bad.

They're bad ones and 

Justin: good ones. Yeah. But, but this just like, I feel bad walking into a stadium and rooting for the 49ers, knowing this employer. Yeah. If I just look at the medicine employer, it's not that they're bad employer. It's just that they're running that business and their legal 

Phil: departments conniving, 

Justin: and, and they don't like, they're literally screwing over some of my clients.

And, and why do I want to support that by giving my money to that team? Right. That's why it's made it a little weird for me to follow football. I've watched now and I see a guy injured. I'm like, oh fuck. Yeah. Like that's not good. 

Phil: And you know, so if you're, if you're injured, I, you know, I never thought about it, but if you're a football player, if you're a pro football player and you're injured, it's workman's 

Justin: comp right.

Same rights apply. Same unless you're a college player. 

Phil: Yeah. Oh my God. That's a whole nother thing. I'm so 

Justin: happy. Yeah. They're finally that they have an ally rights because. In what world can you be really great at something? And people want to pay you to the spokesperson with, right, right now, I can't, I can't take it.

Can't do that. Or we can hide it or two coaches making millions of dollars and, and you can't profit off your own name. 

Phil: Is it going back to the ed O'Bannon thing? Do you know about that? And, yeah, 

Justin: I don't remember. Well, the tests about the case, but yeah. 

Phil: I mean, the thing with the ed ed O'Bannon thing is he's playing a video game and a tip with him in the game.

Yeah. And he's in his dorm room or whatever, and he's like, I can't get any money for this. It's 

Justin: it's literally, it looks like me. It's my number. It's my name on the jerks. It's my size. It's my attributes. And I can't make a penny. That's great. And I, I grew up playing those video games and I'd always just laugh because yeah, it's crazy.

It's obviously the player, but just that, that bothered him. It bothered me that, that they didn't get to profit on it off at the same way. It bothers me that they don't get medical coverage. Cause a lot of these guys show up to the NFL and I'll talk to them and now I go, yeah, it's an old college injury and they have no coverage for that.

Ah, geez. 

Phil: And, and now they've got to sign off to that. Their knees they're going to gimpy knee. So the team's not responsible because his knee is back from college. He had a knee problem 

Justin: guys that have multiple knee surgeries in college and they have no ability to go get medical or guys that have. What about the guy I don't see in the NFL, a guy that just has a severe injury in college, a career 

Phil: ending injury.

Justin: Tough. Yeah. Tough luck. Tough work. Oh, well, we gave you a college ride and, and I'm not saying that's not valuable. Right. But 

Phil: relative to, to give the coach in education and don't pay him or see how that goes, how 

Justin: about that? Or at least provide the guy medical protection for the rest of his life. Right, right.

Like do something to help that kid. And then, so how 

Phil: does work? So it seems pretty obvious now that if you're a pro and you're hurt on the field, it's a workman's comp claim a claim. Cause you're at work. They're not employees. It's just that simple in college. So nobody's responsible for the injury, but the player, 

Justin: they're not 

Phil: employees.

Well, I would, I would, you know, just 

Justin: totally crazy. It's, it's why, it's why. And I don't, we don't have to get into it, but it's why the, the, the, 

Phil: I mean, if you can go pro then or, or sit out, I'm trying to think who sat out there last college year. 

Justin: Oh, to go pro it's a no-brainer for me. Right? You put yourself in bubble wrap and wait and wait until your name is called.

Why don't you? Because as soon as you sign your name, they're going to forward you a multimillion dollar check. Some of the players that I've talked to, I have found out have insurance policies. So when they become that, go pay for an insurance policy. But that's still not enough, but if they can afford it, if they can afford it, right.

If they come from a background that allows it, I did here. Can, can 

Phil: we invest in that? 

Justin: That'd be a good idea. 

Phil: I'm serious. You know what I mean? We'll, we'll pay for your policy. You either will take a share of your 

Justin: policy or 1% a year or next. No, I don't. And I'm sure someone's slotted, but, but it's, it's why the whole tech world, Uber drivers.

It's why that drove me. Well, there's, 

Phil: there's one thing I was when we were going, when I saw that we were going to talk, there's one thing that's kind of newsy right now, which I wanted to get your opinion on. And that is these content moderators for like YouTube and Facebook. Do you know about this? No. So.

Any, any horrible thing, you can imagine. People try to upload to YouTube and Facebook, right? And so these things get marked or flagged, and then there's people's jobs. Their job is to watch all the stuff and see if it's objectionable or not. Right. And the horror, the horrible things they have to say. Yeah.

And on a, on a basis. So the 

Justin: them are, they employees like, 

Phil: of course not no Facebook, 

Justin: Where they just say, we're looking for people to, 

Phil: so Facebook, Facebook hires out another company who employs these people. Right. And so their, their big argument is, is they need mental health care for sure. You know, from some of the, the traumatic things they're subjected to all the time.

And and they're having having trouble getting it, you know, but I thought that was really interesting. Cause it's something, you know, think about what an awful job 

Justin: we see that we see that a lot with police 

Phil: and fire. Well, and it reminds me of a case going back, who was a member and also a good friend who was constantly being harassed by a supervisor and tried to pursue a workman's mental health workman's comp right.

Is from what I've heard in my experience, nearly impossible 

Justin: to prove it's harder. And it's, and you get, you get a lot of rolling eyes from doctors from sometimes judges, but sometimes all the time defense attorneys, right? Oh, come on. 

Phil: Right. This is your injury. In this case, it was crystal clear to me, but even still, it was like, you're better off pursuing it as a disability case and not a comp case because you could, you could go into a whole nother issue just trying to pursue it as much.

Justin: And the legislature made, we call them psychiatric cases, made them harder to prove. So you actually have a standard. Whereas a physical injury. If you get hurt on the job, even if you've had 10 prior ankle injuries, if you twist your ankle, it's still an injury on the job, right. For a psychiatric injury, you have to prove predominant.

Cause it has to be more than 50%, just a basic rule. Right? So, so you, you have people who have all a whole host of trauma in their life and then they have a work event 

Phil: or they're just married, 

Justin: have kids they've experienced a lot. I mean, they've lived a life. Well, so in 

Phil: this case, this case what happened was, is he had a, he had been friends with one of the management people 10 years prior.

Right. And because of that relationship, that kind of overrode anything else that might've been work-related. Yeah. 

Justin: And 

Phil: by the way, you guys weren't involved 

Justin: in this. What a lot of people don't understand is there's a difference between the standard of injury and what we call the standard for permanent disability apportionment, we call it.

So for example, if you have a whole awful history 

Phil: or time, they did a number on him too, with investigators and all that 

Justin: worst of the worst stuff, right? You've had trauma in your life, family members die. You've had, let's say you were abused as a child, like just a rough life, right? And then you go to work, basically, 

Phil: you can't be abused at work then 

Justin: is, is sort of volunteering is what people say, right?

But, but the reality is that's still an injury. You were working just fine. You entered the labor market. You've got a job you're successful until this awful supervisor. As long as it's not what we call a good faith personnel action, but this, this awful supervisor treated you as him. You can still have an injury and just what we call a portion out, a lot of the disability to prior stuff.

But a lot of times they'll just lump it all together and say, Nope, bad history. So no injury like that person can't have an injury now. And, and I've talked to some doctors and they said that I seem to use this word a lot today. It's it's ass backwards because somebody who goes through that trauma and gets through it is probably mentally stronger than somebody who has never dealt with trauma in their life, or has 

Phil: better tools and everything else.

Justin: And so to get through all that and still be working and succeeding in life, and then to have an event that, that takes you off your path, that events probably more of a big deal, but yet in worker's comp, Nope, that person, bad history. They can't have an injury. I've I, I represent an injured worker who she She experienced some awful things in a courtroom, awful things.

She, she was she was a clerk for some hearings for, for criminal proceedings. So like rapists murderers, and she's, she's in the courtroom with these people, hearing the details, significant trauma that she has suffered. 

Phil: And, and she's got to do that. Kate, that, that case is over another case comes up.

Right. And you have an 

Justin: insurance company. That's like, no, this lady is fine. Like, let's walk you in a courtroom with these people, hearing those details and you think you'll be okay 

Phil: over and 

Justin: over this poor lady has, has doesn't feel safe. I don't mind her. That's her reality. She lived that. And yet insurance company now, nothing wrong.

Milking the system 

Phil: police. I can't imagine. Police that have like long-term careers. Cause you're seeing the worst people, the worst of people all the time. Yeah. You know, and that, you know, how, how they maintain their sanity is just beyond 

Justin: me. There's a. Saying I don't, I don't know. And 

Phil: they've had their issues and, and you know, my I'm like, Hey, please, you know, these issues are legitimate and I think they need to pay them more to get a better quality of person.

And in addition, train them more, you 

Justin: know, what we saw, I don't know the specifics, but I think there was some legislation in New York after September 11th that protected those those first responders. And I know that we had, we had, we obviously have legislation in California that protects safety 

Phil: officers.

That's what's funny. You have to, I remember. So John Stewart, the comedian slash. Daily show hosts. Yeah, he was out there. They were still trying to get support and benefits for first responders and nine 11. And anybody you think that that serves it deserves, it would be taken care of. So the 

Justin: worst of the worst, and they're still we're screwing 

Phil: with still trying to screw over those 

Justin: people.

You know, we tell, we tell all of our clients, insurance companies are the worst company is not your friend. One of my partners, I did, I didn't know this history. He, he moved out here after I'm going to butcher this story. He knows, you know, he knows all the details. I don't know. So he, he moved out here after Katrina in new Orleans, right?

Ooh, disaster. Right? Natural disaster. He said he had to Sue his own insurance company. He lost his house in Katrina. It flooded his house. Obviously there was 

Phil: this thing called a hurricane. Right. 

Justin: And he said he had to Sue his insurance company to get them his homeowners insurance to get them to cover the law.

Like really, we're going to, I mean, you're going to spread the losses to me anyway. Talk about a great business. If they pay a lot, they just make everyone else pay for that loss. They can't ever 

Phil: lose them. And I feel like they're always going to test everybody a little bit. Like, you know, can you get through the phone menu?

Can you get through the, the callbacks? Can you get through the paperwork to file actually file a claim 

Justin: to bring it full circle? Yes. This is why we get phone calls from people and they say, well, I was told to call a lawyer. Do I need a lawyer? And I say, you trust the insurance company. Well, they're nice too.

Th th th the system is set up, the worker's comp system is set up. So workman's comp bring it home. Well, first off, you'd get in trouble for calling it work. Man's compensation 

Phil: work well, it's, workers' 

Justin: comp it's workers' comp you'll get you'll get in trouble. So I, I got in trouble. I get in dry head to him.

My first job was I had two female partners at a law firm, and I didn't know what I was doing the first day. I was reading a statute to them. And it said, work man's compensation in the 

Phil: status. Yeah, all the, all the old contracts they used to do said work mans. 

Justin: They lost me. How dare you? And I said, well, I just reading.

So since then, I don't know why my mind picks it up. It's good to 

Phil: hang onto that. People hang on to that. They're like, oh, well, the art of the language should be, and it's like, If it, if it's call it workers, if it offends somebody that it's not worth having, it's just that simple. It's like the Redskins, you know, is it really worth arguing over the name?

Justin: No. What are they are the Indians or the Indians who cares? I know. So. We tell people all the time, we, we go into meetings with employees and we say, the system is not set up to where they're just going to give you benefits. You have to fight for what you're entitled to. They'll send you to a doctor who doesn't want to help you.

A doctor who's paid by the insurance company whose whole goal is to give you additional help, right there. You could literally walk in there with your arm hanging by like a tendon. And they tell you to go back to work, 

Phil: you know, the, you know, the best occupational health place I ever went to. And I had, you know, I had a physical job.

I had a lot of injuries was Kaiser. And that, that company did not stick with Kaiser very long because Kaiser didn't care. They didn't 

Justin: play that game. And it, well now they do. So they have a whole division Kaiser, occupational medicine, right. Which is not the same as going to your normal Kaiser. There, there are firewall.

Now they are paid by the employer that not again, not an insurance plan, they're paid by the employer. And I will say when, when, when Kaiser, occupational medicine goes to X insurance company and says, we want your business, what do you think they're selling them? Right. We will get your people back to work as quickly and cheaply as possible and dammit they did with the lease liability.

And they do. I mean, in what world do you have people who walk in with a shoulder injury? And they're said, well, let's do, let's do 10 physical therapy sessions. And if it still hurts, then we'll do an MRI. Right. And meanwhile, you, you know, probably 90% of those people are in more pain because, well, so they have a torn something in their shoulder.

Phil: And so I'm, I'm an employee, right? Yeah. I see my employer every day. I know them. I have a level of comfort with them. You're an outsider. You're some attorney. You don't know me. You don't know them. Right. So I get, I get hurt at work. I mean, I'm inclined to listen to the people that I know. Right. 

Justin: That's that's the first, that's the first problem, I think, but 

Phil: what I know, but what I've always told people too is you can only trust somebody in that situation as much as they're allowed to, to help you.

You know, and if there, if some bosses, boss and it's different when it's a mom and pop, but if it's some corporation, you know, some mid-level manager guy's going to go now, you're going to not going to help that guy, 

Justin: get him back to work. That's why we, we, we try to educate members on the importance of pre designating.

So I want to cover a couple topics. 

Phil: I want to cover pre designating and then also for Joe Schmoe. Cause the other thing that I think would probably that I would think some people would be concerned about is cost too. So, so, so predesignated because they knew the law has changed. It seems like it changes every couple of years 

Justin: you can pick your workers' comp doctor in advance of having an injury, your doctor.

And when you do that, you, you avoid all of the really rigid rules that are set up in workers' comp. 

Phil: I've had a doctor say in the past that they don't do comp my regular. 

Justin: So, so the doctor has to agree. That's the hard part. Right? But what, what, what an educated person will deal with most don't understand.

This is say to your doctor, look, I just need you to sign up. And if I get hurt, I'm going to come in and you can just refer, refer me. 

Phil: Right. 

Justin: You don't have, that's why I brought it up because yeah, but you have to get the doctor to say that, by the way, Kaiser won't do this, Kaiser basically says, no, that's, that's, that's our occupational medicine.

So anyone with Kaiser can tune out. Right. So, but if, but even if you have Kaiser guy it's worth it, I am too three kids at Kaiser, you know? Well, I've had the same benefits, 

Phil: stick the needle down at the 99 Montecito. 

Justin: So, so we, if, if, if you can pre designate, you can avoid that the occupational health it's worth it.

If, and I've told friends who have the job. 

Phil: And then the, the other question I have is does that person have to have treated you before. 

Justin: So treat it as a, as a weird word. They 

Phil: have to, again, we can cut all this out if 

Justin: it's weird, but they have to knew before. I don't know what level of treatment is required.

So what I have always suggested is if you and I I've told friends this who have warehouse jobs, I've said, you're going to get hurt. At some point you have a heavy job. Yeah. You're getting a credit 

Phil: happen. It's going to happen. It's so true. 

Justin: You have a family doctor who you've seen go pay that guy a hundred bucks or gal, go pay him a hundred bucks, see him one day, sign the form, turn in the form to your employer.

That you've just avoided occupational medicine. You have saved yourself so much headache when you eventually do get her, right. You will laugh at how easy that was and how good of an idea that was. But most people are like, oh, I'm not going to get her. I'm super human. Now with the box 

Phil: the way, and everybody thinks they're not going to get hurt.

That's the funny 

Justin: part they do. And that, that in a nutshell is why there's a, there's an adage that attorneys are drunks, right? You've probably not, I haven't heard this, that I think the highest of any profession, 

Phil: by the way, I've been, I've been on a, an attorney streak for some reason, 

Justin: the, the alcoholic rate of attorneys is obscene.

Oh, okay. And I think no one knows why, but I think it's because we, we spend our day dealing with other people's problems. And I know that one. So, so this is a classic example of why I love what we do because. I literally get people calling me on their worst day. They never thought they'd get hurt. They just, I make good money.

I have family, I pay my rent, I pay my mortgage and I'm sales, I'm safe. And then they get her and they get that first check. And it's two thirds of what they used to make. And they're freaking out. I can't, I can't afford, I can't afford to, to, to live a life Smith. I 

Phil: have kids. So we always check phones. So I cannot, people were like, oh, don't use it.

Don't look at your phone. And while you're in, it's like I have 

Justin: kids. Speaking of which the guy was calling me, dumped his truck. Perfect example, teamster member, right? Successful family kids, allegedly great family. Brakes gave out on his truck, flipped it and was in the ICU for four weeks. This is why I love what we do because I get to help people through that crisis in their life and hopefully steer them back on to the right.

Phil: Well, getting to that point earlier is, you know, your, so I know my employer, I know I've got a relationship with them. I don't know you at all, but the truth is it's not your employer handling somebody whose injury it's there. 

Justin: It's got to be, the employer literally sends a form to their insurance company and 


Phil: just, and they're driving from that point.

They tell, they tell him, I don't give a shit. If that's your best friend, you know, you're going to deny this, or you're going to, you're going to try to get them 

Justin: back to the war. Only thing the employer knows from that point on is I'm saying, 

Phil: why should somebody call you? Yeah. If they feel like, you know, I've worked with, I've worked with Bobby for 20 years 

Justin: because they're not dealing with Bobby.

And even though Bobby May want to help them, Bobby's the face of a woman. The insurance company is the one paying the bills and the insurance company has no interest in protecting them, has no interest in their health, protecting them is solely interested in how do I get out of this claim as cheaply as possible?

There's a claim. The employer faxed it over. My job is. Close it as quickly 

Phil: as get rid of little claims and turn big claims 

Justin: into little claims need and any person who doesn't think they need help adjusters go to school, they have to go to training to do their job. And you, you think an employee is, it's a fair fight.

When an employee is dealing with that person, it's not fair. It's not a fair fight. So they need a lawyer. And what's, what's crazy. And this is as your next question. Yeah. So what's it going to cost me for ourselves? That's what's so crazy about this. So 

Phil: that's, that's written into the statute, 

Justin: right? We, we take we're on a contingency fee basis, so I never will.

I get this question all day. Like I can't afford a lawyer and I say, D you can't not afford to have me and I don't cost you 

Phil: anything. Well, that's the thing. That's crazy. That's the first thing. I know that when I was young, especially when you're younger you don't understand these things, you know?


Justin: W we take a percentage of your recovery at the end. If we don't get your recovery, we don't get paid and our involvement will increase the value of your case. Anyway. Well, what's 

Phil: funny is to just talking about the particular particulars of your firm is just having your from call or so. So this is personal experience now, and it's going to sound like a testimonial, but having referred people to, to boxer law.com for years, right?

Just the involvement of your friends. Has ended so many shenanigans for people about arguing whether or not they're going to get physical therapy or what the care gets instantly better. And people don't get fucked with that. Have you, on their side has been 

Justin: my experience and that's, that's, that's our goal, right?

I mean, that's, our goal is to make it so that you're not going to get fucked with on the basis of that. You're gonna fuck 

Phil: with the guy that doesn't have you guys 

Justin: yeah. Talking basics like an MRI. This is why I always laugh at insurance companies because you know, they're at industry 

Phil: events. I'll tell them, is that like, is that like, if you don't test for COVID, you don't find COVID right.

If you don't get an MRI, 

Justin: never know. So yeah. It's amazing rates have gone to COVID rates are way down. Of course, there's more we're testing. 

Phil: We didn't tear meniscus. 

Justin: We didn't get an MRI. So. At industry events, we often get asked like, well, why do people come find a lawyer it's money, right? That's the thought thereafter money?

I don't remember the last injured worker who has come to see me talking about money. They come because I just want an MRI. I don't know what's wrong with my shoulder or my back's bad and I can't have physical therapy or I love this one. I have, I fell and I hurt my back and my knee and the doctor's telling me I can only have one body part.

Phil: Oh, really? Is 

Justin: that a thing? That's a thing. The occupational medicine doctor told me I'm only allowed to treat for one body. Since, when is that a thing right now? You just made that up. 

Phil: But then, and half of the people, right? It's, it's like the sports you know, tip gambling people, right? I mean, half of the people are going to go away then and say, well, okay.

I can only pick one. That happens. And that happens. Somebody got the, you know, the, at the insurance statistics Institute, they know, they know exactly how many people will walk away from a problem just by being challenged. 

Justin: They, they, they do studies on when they, when they change a law on the savings that that changed a law is created.

And to a lot of attorneys, we laugh because we're like, well, that didn't help anyone, but it's the cases we will see Jones. 

Phil: It seems like a lot of times too, like the laws there to protect the employers and not the, not the employees. 

Justin: I mean, what do you mean? Don't get you started. People 

Phil: the laws are they to handcuff you guys, right?

Justin: The Teamsters UFC w S CIU. I mean, all these unions have people fighting and, and the legislature just continues to punish injured workers. And it's amazing to me why this issue doesn't get more traction because everyone's going to get hurt on the job. But nobody assumes no to believe stuff. 

Phil: Yeah. If you work for a living, you're going to get hurt.

You're going to get hurt if you physically work 

Justin: and, and you know, and yet these issues get no traction, right? Like nobody cares whether, you know, your, your politician runs on a workers' comp platform that doesn't move the needle. Right. But yet they'll make statements like make the state more business friendly.

You've probably heard that. What do you think that means? It means cutting workers' comp costs, cutting insurance costs. Well, who's that going to screw over right. 

Phil: Workers labor. Yeah. They hold, they hold workers hostage for everything. Now we don't cut 

Justin: our taxes and it's, and what it's doing is, and I, this is our attempt 

Phil: to schedule workers.

Get it. It's going to cut them. It's 

Justin: screwing over the, the health and welfare. Because when, when, oh, no doubt. When, when you can't get treatment for your work injury, workers' comp I can personally go use your private insurance 

Phil: TBT. I'm not, I'm not saying I ever did it, but I did it a lot where it was just it's so work with workman's comp.

So being a union memory, going back to years past myself, and I know several people that would deal with this is it was so much harder to get care and decent care and treatment through a workman's comp case that you go through your regular 

Justin: patients. Yeah. And who's that who, and who's paying for that.

And while everybody, yeah, so it's like, great. So we're, we're shifting gears company wins again. So insurance company wins. So 

Phil: clip another cigar toast and other 

Justin: branding.  It's like these issues get no traction. They affect everybody, but yet what's apathy. It just kills me. And I, and, and we host, we have marketing events, we host the there's an applicant attorney association. We have we have, 

Phil: so how does that, how does that work?

I get injured at work. I mean, union member, not a union member. I'm just, I work for a living 

Justin: unless you, 

Phil: so, so I go to boxer law.com and just call in college.  

Justin: eight eight three five one oh eight three five eight seven zero. And we'll get you to an attorney and the attorney can jump in right away and help.

And, and, and again, I always get, I always get, well, what does this cost. Right. We I've never sent a bill to an injured one. When do I start? 

Phil: When do I sign something? So, 

Justin: Saying that it's a free consultation, first of all, to figure out if 

Phil: has it legal walk me through. So it hurt. I call you say, come on down, we're going to talk.

How'd you get hurt. Yeah. 

Justin: Are you getting treatment? Are you working just the baby? You know, it's 

Phil: another tricky one too. And I made you do something and then I'm going in a different direction. But is that the cumulative injuries too? Because it's always been my understanding that there needs to be like an event.


Justin: People don't know. This is a really funny story. I had a guy who calls me well, know that you need an 

Phil: event to like start the injury, whereas I've worn out my 

Justin: knee. Perfect. Let me give you the perfect example. I'm a garbage man. I'm worn out my knee. I have a client who was an AC transit bus. Who says Justin, my neck is killing me.

I just, I go over all these bumps. You know, I'm staring at the road. My neck is killing me, been doing this for 20 years. So that's, that's a classic repetitive stress injury. So we file it. He comes to see me. I file it. Meaning I send the first notice to the employer that my client has 

Phil: an injury. Oh really?

So the workman's comp flies. I start the process. Oh, okay. 

Justin: You can do that. I can do that. AC transit. I should know that says to him, Hey, fill out this form. And he, he says, well, how do I fill it out? Well, when were you hurt? Exactly. That's what I say. So he calls me and I said, just say it was a repetitive stress injury.

They're telling me it can't be that I need to put where out, what bus I was on and where I was when I 

Phil: got her. Because that's what they're they're training 

Justin: books. They're training. I mean, literally a, a cumulative trauma is an acceptable form of injury, but this large employer couldn't figure it out. That that's what the claim was.

And they made my client feel like, like an idiot. No, that's I feel like I'm just, I just filed a claim, but I, I wasn't. So, you know, I had to walk him through it and I helped him through it and we did it and they still were thinking you're doing this all wrong, but you know, just what are we did this two weeks ago.

So totally unacceptable form of injury. And it's wonderful. When you have a, a union member who works 30 years in a warehouse lifting or driving a truck for 20 years or doing whatever they're doing, your body is just 

Phil: worn out. Well, that's the thing. You wouldn't expect a car to go a hundred thousand miles without needing some repair, 

Justin: you know?

Right. And, and even if, just like you said, even if you've occasionally gone to your own, Dr. And God massage or acupuncture, spinal fusion, spinal fusion. But if you've gotten some treatment, like at the end of your employment, you should be filing a cumulative trauma claim that you it's really simple to me.

Well, if you're a firebox you on a couch for 30 years, would you be the same shape as you are now? Probably not. Right. Your body is beaten up. What's the difference I've been working. Right. Okay. I have been working for boxer Gerson, the employers we're, we're responsible for that. Right. And we would, we would tell her 

Phil: Plessy assistant, 

Justin: we would tell our employees to file a workers' comp claim.

Right? There's no, there's no, we don't hide from that. We'd be really awful. If we tried to tell our employees not to file workers' comp points. 

Phil: That's true. You wouldn't 

Justin: be, we don't and you're not awful. No, we would. We would tell any 

Phil: person, right. You're saying not only that, but the firm practices, 

Justin: what they preach.

Yeah. Union shop, union shop. We're proud of that fact. I mean, that, that are, 

Phil: but getting back to that earlier point, which is amazing because the interests of a union worker and a non-union worker, I never even thought of the difference. 

Justin: Right. Well, I mean, you could have a, we represent people of color. Well, just 

Phil: using the FedEx ups guy, you know, 

Justin: so yeah.

I mean, FedEx guy. FedEx is a bad example. They make, I don't know. I don't know what do they make decent money. 

Phil: Right. But even if you're hurt at FedEx, it's like, fuck it. Let me, let me, let me get a job at ups. Right. I can get a job. I can get a job. Let me get what I can out of FedEx and I'll go somewhere else.


Justin: I don't, I don't have, I don't have a pension, a bill, right? I don't have any of these things that I don't have any 

Phil: long-term commitments to these people, you know, 

Justin: get me out. And the employers are, are, are keen on that. They will make offers. You're not supposed to do resignations. And workers' comp the judges will tell you it doesn't happen where all the time we get insurance companies saying to us, look, here's, here's an offer of a hundred thousand dollars, but I need your client to go.

Right. Wink, wink, and, and, you know, look, we present that to our client. And for the most part, you have people who are fuck that job that I made $50 an hour. Right. And go find another job for $15 an hour. Sure. I'll resign. You don't get that with it, with it, with a union member. They're like even if you pay me a hundred thousand dollars, I make that money in two years and I'm paying into my, in my retirement and right.

Like that's not worth it for me. That's a bad deal. And they're right. Absolutely. And that's why. You really have to understand that, that fact to understand why a union member might be motivated differently than a non-union member. That's, that's critical to representing somebody. And it's scary when you see people.

Phil: So how did, so how did the firm gets started? I mean, you guys are big now. You're, you're managing partners. So how, I mean, how much time do you spend managing and how much time do you spend with Clem? 

Justin: Well COVID has sort of made that a really weird dynamic. I mean, we have, we have lawyers working summer in the office, summer home.

When did you start 

Phil: as managing partner? Three years ago? Three years ago. So a year and a half of that, it's been, 

Justin: it's been a wild ride to say the least. Congratulations. There's I always joke with some friends of mine. I'm not, I don't pride myself as being, oh my God, wait a minute. You're 

Phil: the employer.

Justin: Yeah, yeah. Right. So I don't pride myself on being some expert employer, you know, this is the first management job I've had, you know, I think I was just the guy suckered into doing it. So. This COVID has made me realize there's like the guidance we're given to run a firm or to run a business in this environment is so awful.

I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've gone to our lawyer and said, what do I do now? Like, can I require vaccines or not? Can I ask about a vaccine or not? I've called, I've had talks with some of the secretary treasurers at the locals normal. Here's what we're doing. I don't know if this is right or wrong.

I mean, today, the federal government announced that they're going to quote, require vaccines, even though it's not a real record. Well, they're 

Phil: going to require it or testing or tech. Like, I don't know what that 

Justin: does. And I don't know if you saw, but maybe two months ago, the city and county came up with a rule that we're requiring all city employees, city, and county employees to be vaccinated or accept.

They're not, it doesn't even go into effect until the FDA approves of the vaccine. And then there's religious and medical exemptions. So it's like everyone has these different, it's shocking. 

Phil: He knows what to do. Well, part of it was, is honestly, I, you know, I'm have strong feelings on this subject, but it was never people weren't stupid enough for it to be a question before it's like, oh, there's a vaccine.

And it's FDA approved. And my doctor says, get the vaccine, but I'm not doing it, but I'm going to listen to some guy on Facebook because my fucking doctor doesn't know what he's talking about. 

Justin: And I, I it's been such a weird  it's 

Phil: like, where do I get the shot speaking to COVID though? So what if, what if I get now 

Justin: COVID claims are scary.

I mean, we've had, we've had COVID claims, right? I've seen some awful the stuff I work 

Phil: in. I'm a nurse and I come down with COVID. 

Justin: I have a, I have do I call you guys? Absolutely. And what's scary about COVID. Well, you got the long haulers. We don't know. So I represent a long holler now, who is the scariest thing?

So just backing 

Phil: up, we're talking about COVID in regards 

Justin: to working skirt. So worker's comp. Yeah, she, she COVID tested positive. Now. She doesn't test positive anymore. Whoa, but she has we're nine months after the fact she cannot work more than six hours a day at the six hour mark. She literally can't drive herself home because that's how exhausted she is.

This is a woman who has had this she's a doctor has had this job for, for decades. Never had a problem. Never had a problem. She gets COVID. She cannot work. So Kaiser says, sorry. Got nothing for you. 

Phil: And oh, we can't, we're not going to, we're not going to, we're not going to put six hour doctors. We're not going to put you on a 

Justin: modified schedule.

And, and now they're like, we're done. We don't have permanent six hour doctors. There's this poor lady is gonna lose. 

Phil: Well, the weird thing is, is being in the union guy for a minute is now you've got issues of seniority and everything else because somebody else, some other doctor who has three young children might want a six hour shifts.

Justin: It's it's really, it's, it's really tricky. It gets tricky, but it's, it's crazy to me because we also don't know. Well, for 

Phil: one thing, when I first met actual people in that scenario, two is then go out and get COVID because it's not apples to apples. Right. Go get COVID and then you can have the six 

Justin: hour shifts.

So the treatment for, for the Welton haulers have received, it's just, it's not even existed. And then they, they sent my car to a psychologist. Like what, what is the psychologist going to do? She's mentally fine. She just can't. She has hit her ears. She has total exhaustion and there's nothing they can do to treat it.

They've every test they've run. Right. They have no idea. If you file the claim on time, 

Phil: she's got a, she can make an argument, whereas in the future, if you, you know, if you don't, if you don't, 

Justin: where's your file. If you don't raise your hand, you're just Sol. Yeah. And then, and then what, then you have these, but what's crazy is that I would imagine three years from now who knows what damage this is going to do to that person's body.

Right? I mean, I, a few of my professional football players got COVID and they're like, no, I'm fine. I didn't even have a symptom. Right. And I'm thinking, dude, if you, if your lung capacity is impacted, 5% you're going to, you will notice that I probably need Dallas's that 

Phil: you would notice that, well, not only that your body's your living, you 

Justin: know, everything.

And so I've encouraged guys to file, and 

Phil: it's not like the old days with the Raiders where it was like drinking and drugs. And like, these guys have figured out, I gotta take care 

Justin: of my buddies. Yeah, totally. These guys are so precise. 

Phil: There's there. There's no off-price in anymore. 

Justin: I call these guys in their mid workout.

They're like, ah, I got to do this work. I'll call you back. They 

Phil: hire their own nutritionist. They have 

Justin: the team, the teams give them week one. Here's your protocol? Week two. You're working on legs week three arms here. Right? It's like, this is full season. One case I have, I never forget this. The Raiders a guide shit.

Phil: What if you get it? So what if you get injured in the off season, you're in the gym where 

Justin: guy drops a weight. Okay. Yeah, that happens. Shatters his foot. Oh, lost his career. He never recovered from it. The Raiders denied his claim as being work-related

in the, in the standard NFL contract. There's a obligation that they will remain in. Good, in good shape. 

Phil: Right. It's like the Jeff Kent fell off his truck Washington's truck 

Justin: thing. Right. And literally he was doing exercises that team emailed him to do, but you say that's not work-related we'd come on now.

So yeah, they ended up paying on that one, but, but this is, this is what they do. 

Phil: Right. They're going to try cause some other guy will go, well, yeah. You 

Justin: know, way these employers are, but 

Phil: they're just unimportant to put the mindset. And I know because I have this mindset too, is that I'm the one that dropped the weight.

The team didn't drop the weight. I dropped the weight. 

Justin: I hear that all the time. You 

Phil: know, why is that 

Justin: by far? Yeah. I, it's not even if it's your fault. Yes. It's your fault. It's your job in the service 

Phil: for, in the service of your employer? They're obligated that if you fuck up whatever response, they have a responsibility while doing your job, I'll do a 

Justin: new job.

We are responsible for these benefits. So when, when people don't file jokes on you, man, and that, that is it pains me to see that. But, but the other 

Phil: I'm trying to think of two is, cause I know that people are afraid that somehow they'll get you know, blacklisted or, or they'll, you know, they'll get to see an arc against them 

Justin: agents call me and say, my guy's kind of a fringe guy.

Is it really a good idea to file a workers' comp claim? And I'm trying to 

Phil: get that. I'm trying to think. And I've had some bad employers. I had been fortunate. I had a lot of good employers too, but I'm trying to think of anybody that lost their job as a result of filing 

Justin: comp. Well, it, it, it shouldn't happen.

Phil: Well, of course, there's a lot of things, 

Justin: you know, obviously they're not allowed to retaliate. There's, there's, there's a anti-discrimination provision in the labor code that they can't discriminate against somebody for filing injury claim, but we can't protect the, the simple stuff. Right. For example, one employer, 

Phil: if you don't get to 

Justin: work, what employer who shall remain name was, yeah.

They'll know if they, if anyone's ever listening, they'll know everyone who gets hurt gets put on modified work with the opposite shift. So at night, a daytime worker gets it's supposed to be 

Phil: the similar work around the similar 

Justin: time. So, so daytime worker gets hurt. Released 

Phil: to, you're going to get me talking all day.

I could talk, modified work as a whole. 

Justin: So they get put at that night shift. You ready for the job gate? Well, 

Phil: don't give up too much, 

Justin: but yeah, it gates security. They have to check in every hour taking a picture to prove that they're, they're still alive and they're doing the breathing. Yeah. Oh, it's doing is punishing the person for filing an injury claim, right?

So you have people who have family situations where maybe they're home at night, their wife works nights are opposite. Right? This totally destroys their, their existence because they got hurt on the job. But now they have to work nights or they don't get paid. Well, they're going to harass them 

Phil: back to 

Justin: work.

It's just an and the whole point of that is, oh, if you can get back to full duty, you can come back right now. Right. It's this belief that somebody files an injury claim for fun. It's not financially beneficial. It's not like in what world do people file workers' comp claims for fun. Right? A lot of employers just assume.

Phil: Okay. Well, you know, the sad thing is, is there's the stated intent of something. And then there's the real intent and talking about modified work, because I've told people over and over throughout the years, they're like, what I'm doing is not productive in any way. And I said the whole purpose to me. And the other thing is they assume modified work, you know, is modified work.

So you T you jump in when I get this wrong is an insurance company construct to keep employers from filing claims with the insurance. 

Justin: No, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, okay. Modified work is an E, but I mean, it's, it's, it's, there's two things going on. Perhaps the most obvious is the claim has less value, right?

Because the employer is paying the person to come to modified work. Right. The insurance company isn't paying the person. Right. I think too, the idea is that the idea is to 

Phil: shame people, 

Justin: that would be number three. Right. But I think the, the theory behind modified work as well, if I can still use this person to my benefit, I can find work 

Phil: for them.

I can find something for them to do if we're going to pay them anyway. 

Justin: And maybe they're more likely to get back to their full duty job more quickly if they're still coming to work every day. Because as we've seen with COVID the longer somebody stays home. The more comfortable 

Phil: they get easy. You're the, you're an employer.

Justin: Well, so that's what I'm thinking for, from my perspective, as an employer, in fact, I was joking with my assistant yesterday, by the way, 

Phil: it could be either argument. Depends if you're married. 

Justin: It's true. But my wife definitely wanted me to get back to the office, but like my, my assistant yesterday, she said she was going to come into the office.

We have an agreement with our legal assistants and secretaries and well, all of our staff that they can work from home. So I S I said, are you gonna, when are you next going to come in? She said, Wednesday morning. So I go to the office Wednesday and I like 8 45. She messages me and says, yeah, I'm going to stay home.

And I wasn't mad. And I said, and I think my struggle is real right to, to when you're, when you're do I really want to commute for an hour when I can. Turn off my computer and work from here. Right. I get it. So yeah, work has changed for sure theory that if I, if I force my employee to come to modified work, they're more likely to keep working, get back to full duty quicker.

I believe that, but what's what's a big misconception is that modified duty is almost a hundred percent within is the employer's 

Phil: discretion. No, the insurance company definitely 

Justin: is, but it's up to the employer, right? So. Except in a CBA world where, where you may have an agreement that they'll they'll, they provide 30 days of offer of modified work.

And that's it for a normal non-union mom and pop shop. They make a choice to offer modified work or not. And if not, they have to pay you, right. If they do offer you modified work, you, the employee have to come well. 

Phil: And also once somebody refuses, modified work, they don't get anything. So I get a lot of call what happens with somebodies injury in that case.

So if they're crazy enough to do go down that route to deny, 

Justin: to refuse modified 

Phil: work, and I'm sure you guys see it a lot. I've seen. And I've seen in a lot of cases where the occupational health place will say, oh no, they're okay to do X and Y. And the person's like, I can't fucking do this happened to me.

You can't do that for eight hours 

Justin: a day. So I had a union member call me yesterday, the occupational medicine doctor released him to full duty two weeks ago. He said, I can't do that. So he'd never physically can't do it. He said, there's no way. So he just said, I'm staying home. And he calls me and he goes, 

Phil: we're getting into 

Justin: QME land or so we eventually get there, but he says, what do I do?

And I said, you can get fired. Right? Like we all remember back in high school days. Like you need a note, right? You need a note signed by a parent, right. To not come to school, you can forge it, whatever, but they need to know works no different. It's a no call, no show. Right? If you don't have a medical, if you just don't go, just don't go.

You're gonna have, you're gonna get a point. You're gonna get written up. Right. And then you're gonna get terminated. And you're going to say, well, it was because my injury, I didn't think I could work well, so yeah, no doctor has taken you off. So I urge those people in that situation to go to the ER, go to your private doctor, get some medical note, to cover the period and get a Warrior's help to fill it in retroactively to get you those benefits.

And that's why that's why predesignated is so important. 

Phil: Getting back to pre designating everything. If you had three designated, because I can most people for a union member, you can go talk to your union will have a form. They have a 

Justin: form. We give them, you can download the form. You can just type pre designate into Google's Patras state form will be there.

It's really simple. You gotta do it, gotta do it. And if you don't do it, you're stuck with occupational doctor, not listening to you and telling you well, and that's the only one body part, which one? All right. 

Phil: I can tell you a true story. And this was a ups driver and I wasn't directly involved in this case.

It wasn't my member. It wasn't. I was just purely an observer and the guy had danced at his wedding. Right. He was out on comp, right. He had danced at, at his wedding at the request of his wife who was like, we got to do this dance and it was on Facebook. Right. And his friends or the supervisor supervisor sees him dance on this video on Facebook and they terminate him.

Yeah. They terminate him and he did one dance, which was a minute and a half or whatever, compared to like a full ups package driver, seven, 11 and a half hour shift to 70 founds, you know? And, and and it was so absurd. Long story short is the union protected him in this case. And he got his job back because it was totally absurd, but that happens, man.

People get fi you know, the lawyer, sir, this guy couldn't do that job for nine hours. More 

Justin: absurd that and this, this hits home for, for, and then 

Phil: you can get a fresher, younger guy. 

Justin: This is going to hit home. If, if, if he hears this, he probably won't. But, but. A gentlemen, what do you mean? Probably won't well, I don't, I don't, I don't, we have a broad audience.

I will tell them to listen. No, I'm kidding. So, anyway, so he'll hear this story. So a guy hurts his knee insurance company sends over an investigator, says guys like, okay, I hurt my knee. Yeah. I'll talk to you on a race, buys him breakfast, takes him out to breakfast. The investigator investigator takes this guy out to breakfast and is recording a statement.

And he says, so he's wearing a wire. Well, he's recording it. He tells him about, okay, I want to record this recording. And he says, do you go running? Do you run now, if I ask you, do you run? What are you thinking? I'm thinking no way I run. Well, like, I'm just, just in general. If I, if I walked up for hanging out at a bar and I said, what are you thinking.

You're probably thinking, do I laced up my Nike's and go running for an hour? 

Phil: Am I jogging my job? Well, context is so huge to 

Justin: this guy. Am I a runner? This guy like a month later is at his son's high school football game or pop Warner classic. His son gets hurt. He jogs out to the middle of the field, right?

Jug jogs back

district attorney prosecuted him for fraudulently pursuing insurance. It's benefits. Why do 

Phil: I know about this? Do I know about that? Okay. 

Justin: Because he was because he said he couldn't. 

Phil: Right. Oh, fuck. Are you kidding 

Justin: me? Chug it out. His son on the football field, his son was injured. Just Triton out there. How much pain on the football field injured.

I'm going to find a way to jock out there. That's what's funny. So prosecuted 

Phil: over that. Once you have kids, it's like, 

Justin: so yeah, it's just so moral of that story is when your member gets hurt, when you employee get her and the insurance company says I'd like to take a recorded, your data should be up. Right.

Phil: Well, wait a minute. So are they, we're going to record that for the employee's benefit? No. In any circumstance it's never going to 

Justin: help you. Like if they say, how did you get hurt? Fine. Now, when they start asking questions about. What happened and what you physically can, it you're up to something. And I want a lawyer at fault.

That's what you should be thinking. 

Phil: The sad thing is not to not to say that the law's a twisted, a dirty game. You know, common senses is yes. Both things can be true. Of course you can go try it out and pick up this side, but I 

Justin: don't run like that's right. And w w in that case, what was even worse is like the guy had a diagnostic image showing the injury, like it, he didn't make up the injury.

He just said, no, I don't, I don't run. And then they got him jogging on the football two minutes, not even two minutes. Yeah. That's not running. I mean, I, I, if someone asked me, if do I run, I wouldn't be thinking, have I ever jugged in my life at any point in time, but this is why I'll tell you after that happened.

We, we literally advised all the members at that employer to not speak with an investigator, right. Because that's the end of that. The investigator is clearly doing. Dirty deeds for the employer at that point, trying to, 

Phil: we would shut that down quick, as far as the 

Justin: union goes. And, and again, and this is also why having that relationship between the lawyer and union is important because we were able to sort of coordinate all that and frankly, stop it.

So that investigator was fired, right? Because suddenly they couldn't, they couldn't question anybody. Nobody would listen to this guy. So he'd call and say, I'd like to speak with, you know, his name was, was useless. So they fired him and 

Phil: then really worth it. That's the, that's the thing where it's like, God, it's just, it's 

Justin: just a work injury.

Like in that case it was a knee. It was it was, you know, he was gonna recover fine. It was, it 

Phil: wasn't that the guy dancing at his wedding, you know, there's a video of him dancing for a minute on YouTube and they, they fire him, you know, 

Justin: Yeah, I see it a lot. 

Phil: And that is why people need representation.

Hire a 

Justin: lawyer. It's that always at free? I shouldn't say free, but you know, I'm going to pay out of your own pocket. You're going to pay out of 

Phil: your recovery. Well, I'll tell you my wife, my wife knows don't talk to a lawyer. Don't 

Justin: let the police in here. It's just nuts. And the biggest thing to understand is that mindset you had of, Hey, I've been working with these people for 20 years.

It's not your employer. It's a, it's a name, it's a faceless insurance company who doesn't care about 

Phil: you, that your employer pays to not care about you. 

Justin: That's right. They don't care about you. And that's hard for people to read it. Well, they're shade, 

Phil: we're human beings. Like, you know, like you go get a cortisone shot at Kaiser's speaking to Kaiser, you know, you've got to ride the wheelchair out into the parking lot.

And it's like, I don't want to ride the wheelchair out to the parking lot. And you know, I look like I can't walk herself through no, it's, you know, it's a thing. It is, it feels 

Justin: weird, but it, but it's the hardest thing for me to say somebody to somebody and they all, everybody, I, I say to says, I understand that they died the football players.

I can't imagine don't care about you. Well, the football players know, they know that the team doesn't care about them. They know they know their meat. I mean, it's sad, but they very few instances has a team. Gone the extra mile for a player and its players who have been there 

Phil: for decades. Okay. It's like an Aaron Rogers is having problems right now.

Jesus doesn't 

Justin: care. Just don't care. It's a piece of meat. Right. And then, and, and the more the player realizes that the better and the more the employee, whether you're Aaron Rogers or Joe ups driver, the more you understand, did 

Phil: he add a list? Aaron Rogers had, he had the receipts, man. He was like, you guys fucked over this guy and that guy, that guy that's going to be 

Justin: awkward.

He at least had the, he has the, the standing to, to say, no, I'm not cool with this, but 

Phil: yeah, he's taking a big risk though. Right? Is this, is it me or is he taking a big risk? Well, so he's got another year left on his contract that going to get paid 

Justin: $25 million. 

Phil: You know, he's, he's one bad hit though, from if he gets hurt, he's screwed.

I mean, in context, I'm sure he'll be okay. Right. You know, his career earnings are okay. It's a risk, you know, if 

Justin: money those guys, I mean, I, I can't, I think the most, the worst example of this is a football player. I represented who had a, he had a really bad injury is actually a local personality. So he injured his ankle, awful injury, awful story, developed an infection.

He was a free agent of infection returned he's in the hospital. When he gets his large offer, they didn't know. As soon as they found out they pulled the offer. He was that close. He was that close to generational wealth. And literally because of a hit two years earlier with a recurrent infection, he never got to realize that value.

Phil:  So thinking about like Kauai Leonard,  when he was with San Antonio and he had like his own crew 

Justin: undisclosed injury, that, that, yeah.

Phil: And, and he said he wasn't right. And they were saying play and there was no evidence to the contrary that he wasn't. He was right. He was in some of his body. That's not right. And he stuck up for himself and he took, and he took a lot of shit, some of them as a player base, so 

Justin: I've 

Phil: handled and then he went and won a championship and is like a super fucking bad, 

Justin: yes.

I've handled cases for players who have gotten their own MRI. When they were told that there was nothing wrong with them, they've then gone out and paid for their own MRI and found out that there was a lot wrong with them. Right. It was literally lying to 

Phil: them. Geez. What's an MRI costs can 

Justin: cost them out of pocket five, $600, right.

That the team, but the team would just lie. No, you're good. Get back on the field. Here's your injection painted pain relief. Get back on the field and guys want to play are 

Phil: great though. Not having pain is powerful, 

Justin: dangerous, unfortunately. So multiple guys, I'm thinking of two off the top of my head. They, they went out and bought their own MRI, then went out and got their own surgery because the team was like, there's nothing wrong with you.

Jeez. And I'm like, I've got torn ligament, 

Phil: but why Leonard was a high-profile example? He took a lot of 

Justin: shit. He did. And everyone, you know, the media was all over him when yeah. 

Phil: He's a headcase. I want to play. 

Justin: Yeah. Well, he's, you know, he's weak. He knew his 

Phil: body. He knew his body. Yeah. And, and that's why like Simone Biles it's like good for her, you 

Justin: know?

Well, especially when just her background being she was a victim of yeah. Larry Nassar, right. She's 

Phil: the only, only victim that is still had a 

Justin: career she's earned the right. If she doesn't feel right for her to say, or 

Phil: is it Osaka? Oh, Casa, 

Justin: the tennis white. Yeah. Same deal. Yeah. I don't, I don't. When, 

Phil: when, when, and what could, why Leonard figured out is he had the confidence to know that I'm a good enough player.

So I'm gonna want me, somebody, someone 

Justin: will pay me and Biles piles, the weird that's what 

Phil: I'm Kaepernick got fucked though. He did get fucked. 

Justin: You have, you have people bad mouthing Biles and saying she's not tough. Right? I think like eight years without losing an event, I know 

Phil: tough godly things that that's woman's had to put up.

Justin: That's pretty good. Now, does it mean. Does it mean that she should have just gutted it out? No, she has the right to say I wasn't up to it about, you know, and all the other comparisons. So I give Tom Brady did that first off. If, if, if a guy like Tom Brady did that, we'd be shocked. But I don't, what do you be criticized the app, but would he still be the best of all time?

Yeah, right. Probably of course you've earned the right to 

Phil: do it on your own. I'm not a Brady fan, 

Justin: although like 

Phil: that bullshit video that was going around 

Justin: the football, the football machine. So obviously, and then something like, is it real? No, it's not real. No. You have, you have wheels spinning the opposite direction.

You think he stuck the machine? He jam 

Phil: it and spit it 

Justin: back out. Not really, but I, I just. The judge, the weird judgemental side people have about professional athletes. If, if working on behalf of the athletes has taught me anything, it's like these guys and gals deal with so much, they're just humans. And 

Phil: if aside with Jerry Jones for Christ sake, right, 

Justin: are we siding with billionaire owners?

Right. Like, yeah, they're right. Argument. God. So this is why it's ruined my, 

Phil: yeah. Yeah. It's hard to like football right now, especially the whole, it's like the tobacco companies saying cigarettes, smoking's good for you. You know that all the, all the CTE stuff and the protocols, and then the, the, the, you know, the, they do it.

But then the it's all half-hearted 

Justin: and Collins, Colin Kaepernick situation. So he could file to me like that guy. It's funny, all this stuff that Lamar Jackson is doing now. I mean, did that 

 I don't, I don't pretend to agree with everything these guys say or do, but I don't know why we find what they say to be so important. Right? Like there's a good point with the vaccine. Right? You're you're getting these a lot of athletes. Barclay said something stupid. I think.

Well, well he said anyone who doesn't get vaccine is stupid. Right. But he did well, he's smart. He said, Earl. He said anyone who doesn't get a vaccine as an ass. Right. Oh, good for him. But like, at some point you never know with him, what are you going to say to that athlete? And I love that respect you, but.

Why do, why do we as a society place, so much importance on what, 

Phil: what, well, I'm not going to ask you what you think of Brittany Spears then. 

Justin: Okay. 23 year old guy fixed about a vaccine. It's his choice. Oh my God. 

Phil: I know. I saw something. Aye. Aye. Aye. My wife's fairly politically active and I sent her this article that said children were protesting mask wearing.

And whatever, you know, and it was like a New York state or something like that at some hearing protesting. And I'm like my children protest any meal. That's not pure candy. I mean, it's like, who would ask a child, whether they should wear a fucking mask or not, you know, 

Justin: I'm protesting no donuts for Ryan or no cookies for breakfast.

That's what I'm protesting. They're going 

Phil: to ask the kids if they want to wear a mask or none. No, of course not. 

Justin: Of course not. Yeah. It's weird. That's the world we're in now. It's just kind of nice, you 

Phil: know, and then they put them up there and now they're, you know, and then the people who are on one side of an argument, go look, the kids don't want it.

It's like they're 

Justin: kids. They got promised the Slurpee. If they send down say 

Phil: anything, my kids will say anything for a Slurpee. 

Justin: By two 

Phil: under oath, by the way, I'm not, I'm just, and that's, but that children, right, 

Justin: right. But that's why, that's why it pains me when 

Phil: three children and testify. Right. Their 

Justin: credibility is of course.

Yeah. I like when we have, when we take the word of athletes to be as like, that's the defining opinion on something and it's like, you're making them a role model and you're putting all this weight on them. They're just a God. 

Phil: Yeah. I mean, humans are flawed. I'm going to raise my hand. 


Cut Cap

Justin:  What's satisfying to me as somebody who, who, who follows unions, you know, is better than anybody.

It's hard to get members on the same page. Right. Right. And when you can get members rallying around a common cause that's, that's awesome. That's the power of, oh my God. Everything gets so easy. Organized labor force. Right. Everything gets so easy. That's what unionism is all 

Phil: about. Frito-Lay right. And recently, did you see that so that they were working.

You know, someone godly amount of shifts and hours nonstop. And finally, it was so obvious to everybody that this wasn't going to stop. They all just walked out. Good. Yeah. Yeah. And no, which 

Justin: so much the Amazon employees do that now. Right. I know, I know everything gets unlocked. Let's hear about that this morning.

Like I know how, how much of an effort is made with Amazon employees, but man, they are shitty to their employees. Jeff 

Phil: business pays and the 

Justin: taxes. I think they are, they are totally, I feel so bad for some of those Amazon employees and I represent some of them. Right. And Amazon is super aggressive with their worker's comp claim.

Of course a guy gets hurt. They literally just start throwing cash at them. Go away. We don't want to treat you here's some money. Goodbye. Cut 

Phil: off the 

Justin: injured finger. Yeah. Goodbye. And all of them have the same injury. They're just so overworked in those, in those warehouses. 

Phil: Well, another thing I wanted to talk to you about we're already at an hour and 45.

Oh, Jesus. Another thing I wanted to talk to you about, you're going to have to, we're going to have to do it again because I wanted to get into the whole independent contractor piece. And what do you do if you're an Uber guy that gets hurt? 

Justin: I, I took an Uber once. I may have had too much to drink and I had to take an Uber home and I, and I asked the guy's opinion and he was like, oh, well, Uber tells me no I don't know you like Uber's tos.

The app just deleted itself that I'm supposed to, you know? And he's like giving me all the lines of why it's better for him to be an independent contractor. And I'm like, yeah, you can have all that as an employee. They're just a line to you. Right. You can have a flexible schedule as an employee. 

Phil: So what happens if I'm a number guy and I get hurt?


Justin: you have no rights. Goodbye. 

Phil: I just don't eat. 

Justin: Now, if you get in or I work hurt. If, if, if you get hurt on the job, You haven't no worker's comp benefits. None. You're 

Phil: on your own. You got nothing. You're 

Justin: totally on your own. The guy who hit you, or God forbid, you caused the accident. You can Sue the guy.

Good luck with that. But that's a lawsuit that'll take years. I hope you have medical coverage because who else is providing you with medical? Right? I mean, well, that's get the workers' comp angle. Your wife gets pregnant. You don't even have the ability to take leave. I know you don't have any, 

Phil: let's be honest at the end of the day, when you're the little guy it's my wife, when you're the little guy, you know, they they'll just starve you out.

You know, they may owe you so much money, but they're like, you know what? We're just going to withhold money until this guy will sign off for anything, you know, 

Justin: When you need help. That's why the, I never forget this Uber driver. And I was like, 

Phil: like, she wouldn't call us. Well, Hey sweetheart.

Yeah. We're still talking though.

Okay. That's probably going to be a no, then love you. Bye.

Justin: So poor Uber driver has no, no rights, nothing, nothing. I mean, you know, it's like, 

Phil: he sure suckered those guys, 

Justin: man. It was such an obvious campaign. Right? Right. It was so frustrating to see these people get, have no rights and they didn't understand what was so maddening. They had no idea. All those things that they said were a benefit to them being independent contractors, they could have had those benefits as an 

Phil: employee.

And it was run like a classic anti-union campaign, which was well we'll, we're just going to close up shop then. 

Justin: Yeah. You know, we're out of, we're out of California, right? 

Phil: We're not going to, yeah. We're not going to do business in 

Justin: California. Forget the union side of it, the employee side of it. What bothers me about that whole thing is just the, how anti-cop competitive.

It is like why don't taxi driver, taxi companies. Don't get away with that shit. So why do we let Uber to get away with that shit? Oh, don't get me started. I mean, now you've got, you've got taxi drivers who are basically going out of business because they can't compete. 

Phil: They can't compete. And then the airport charges the taxis for doing business at the airport.

Whereas the Uber and Lyfts, they get a free ride 

Justin: forever. It's it's really it. 

Phil: And they still pay pennies on the dollar instead of the taxi 

Justin: company. It's so funny straining when you're talking to a person and like, 

Phil: and what happens is, as it comes to bring it all, all the way back around to is they end up with social services in the end.

So in the end, you, and in the end, you and I pay for what Uber should be paying for. Right, 

Justin: right. Somehow some way that driver who got hurt is going to go to the hospital.  

Phil: he should have 

Justin: treatment and Uber didn't have to no, so well that guy's an entrepreneur. That's why, like, you know, those, those, those, those billionaires would never be, would never be for all those social services.

But the reality is they rely on them in order to operate a business. They need that stuff and they could easily just provide workers' comp benefits for their, for their people. But no 

Phil: boy, you're preaching to the choir and cheaper. We could do this all day. I'm going to cut you off. We could, but my wife, I know Justin.

Thanks, man. Thank you for doing it for doing it again or no. All right, man. That was fun, Justin. Lead back. Thank you. Thank you.

Justin Litvack Profile Photo

Justin Litvack

Managing Partner - Boxer+Gerson

Justin Litvack was named Boxer+Gerson’s newest partner at the beginning of 2018. Exactly one year later, he assumed duties as managing partner, responsible for day-to-day management of the firm’s attorneys and staff members. Born and raised in the Bay Area, he hails from a family of legal professionals, the majority of whom specialized in employment-related fields.

Justin spent the first seven years of his career on the defense side of the table as a partner at a prominent workers’ compensation firm, where he represented both large self-insured employers and many different insurance carriers. Seeing how difficult it was for injured workers to collect the benefits they were entitled to, he decided to switch his focus to injured workers to help them navigate the state’s complex workers’ compensation system. His experience in the insurance world has given him unique insights into defense tactics often aimed at delaying the delivery of benefits to deserving injured workers.

When he is not advocating on behalf of clients, Justin can usually be found watching a ball game and spending time with his family.